Don’t Be A Taliban Freemason
June 19, 2009 by BeeHive
Filed under The Bee Hive
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19 Responses to “Don’t Be A Taliban Freemason”Speak Your Mind
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Another great paper Bro. Fred!
To suggest that that all behavior should be tolerated is just wrong. I have the freedom to be intolerant of certain positions of others. This “anything goes” attitude needs to cease. Furthermore, to compare anyone that adheres to a certain structure of Freemasonry – that may be in conflict with your own view – to the Taliban is a very low blow. I have not seen any Freemasons that advocate the lopping off of the heads of so-called female masons.
The direction of Freemason Information and Masonic Central is starting to disturb me. In my own little way, I tried to support FMI and MC. I am starting to wonder if that was a good idea. Acknowledging a female to be a Mason, which you did in your article, is crossing the line in my opinion. If Masonic Central is going to treat this Karen Kidd as a Mason – regardless of how “articulate” she may be, then I will be really disturbed. I encourage FMI to reevaluate its direction and purpose. We already have a TBL and we do not need another one. That niche is filled.
The matter is really very simple. Recognition should be pulled from Grand Lodges that will not tolerate African American members. No committees to investigate. No reports. Just pull the recognition.
If these bigot Grand Lodges want recognition back let them eliminate the racism and begin behaving like decent human beings.
We would not even be having on debate on pulling recognition if there were Grand Lodges that refused membership to Jews, or to white men that happened to have a child with a black woman, or to people with Parkinsons because they are infirm.
Prohibitions against black members as some seek to preserve represent the same garbage. And I’ll say here and now and loudly, most of those pushing this are old men who can not perish from this earth too soon. They refuse to learn or grow or repent. They tar ALL Freemason in the United States with their bigoted hatred.
Stories have made and continue to make the national news media. Masons are racists, etc. These fools are damaging and destroying the self same organization they claim to be defending.
And as someone who works with young people of all colors I can tell you they almost uniformly find such behavior repugnant and would refuse to be part of a group which engages in it. It is great that we are seeing new young members. But many young people will never even consider the Fraternity, they in fact ridicule it for its backward bigotry.
1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2 a time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3 a time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4 a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5 a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing
It is time for those bigot Masons to die or leave. In the meantime the rest of us need to pull recognition.
Aaron
PB, I appreciate your thoughts and comments. If I may be so bold, the sentiment it seems in the BeeHives post is that a fundamentalist approach, while not the only factor, contributes to disconnect between Freemasonry and the present zeitgeist.
The Taliban philosophy s defined as being “extremely strict and [with an]“anti-modern” ideology”. Is it a harsh comparison? Perhaps, but is there a degree of similarity? Fundamentalist could be an substitutable word.
And, just as you said, should all behavior be tolerated? Individually, we can choose to, or not to, recognize who we want, but what sovereign (or moral) law do we consult to make the determination for our own free will?
Lastly, I appreciate your encouragement to reevaluate its purpose, but as before, its purpose stands to move the fraternity into the 21st century and not continue to dwell on our past.
“…its purpose stands to move the fraternity into the 21st century..”
Who has decided that Freemasonry is not already in the 21st century? Who decided that FMI is the conduit for this movement? We have Grand Lodges and Lodges – that have elected leaders and Freemasons with votes – to chart such a course. Last time I checked, Freemasons did not elect the folks at FMI to “move the fraternity into the 21st century.”
Just because general society is seemingly hell bent on abandoning moral and social norms does not mean that Freemasonry needs to follow the same path. If Freemasonry had always followed the path of general society I submit that there would be no Freemasonry today. Freemasonry charts her own course and that happens in the Lodges and Grand Lodges – not on the Internet. Your purpose is off track. You might think about changing the title of the site from “Freemason Information” to something like “Changing Freemasonry.”
The current atmosphere of FMI could be described as, at the least, sympathetic to clandestine bodies. I implore you to be careful about this.
I deeply applaud FMI for having Bro.Kidd as it’s first (of hopefully many) female Brothers as official guests on MC. Bro.Kidd’s book is a example of a fine piece of Masonic architecture. She has proven her dedication to the Craft and I am very excited about this episode.
Do not let those who refuse to believe in what exists knock you from your path.
Love and Light,
Raum
PB, your comment that the “moral and social norms” are being abandoned when one admits women into lodges is rebarbative. How horrible it must be to actually have to admit that half the population is equal to you and yours. This is precisely the point that Fred was making – about the comfortably held assumptions of the White male establishment contrasting with the expectations of the young men and women who mingle openly on campuses. You want membership but are not willing to live up to their expectations that can be described as the moral and social norms of this century, at least that part that can reasonably make the claim to be civilized. You don’t like being tarred with the brush of Taliban? Then stop acting like the Taliban. Stop trying to drag the current world into the past of your rosy-colored imagination.
“this” Karen Kidd? Wow, are there others to choose from? ‘cos I wouldn’t mind having a few…
PB, I appreciate the feedback, and rest assured that there is no leaning, clandestine or otherwise. Rather, an openness to the possibilities and a forum by which to explore them. Think of it an exercise in Free Speech and moral imagination.
As for who decided its position in the 21st century, as above, it is an opinion, nothing more. Just as the Masonic Line is one brothers opinion. Members, Lodges, and Grand Lodges will continue in their processes, doubtfully influenced one way or another at the opinions of a few Internet masons. But, as with any forum, there are other voices in for fora and all equally deserving to be heard. Unlike other sites, there is no agenda to shape opinion, and I again open the door to any contributor who desires to have a take part.
Ultimately, our society will decide its fate through our democratic process. To do otherwise would mean we’ve fallen prey to fascism. If the old normal no longer works, it changes, just as Freemasonry has changed before, during, and after Anderson. I hardly see that as sympathetic to “clandestine bodies”, rather respectful to their existence, which is a stance Most Grand Lodges have towards them, whether openly or privately.
This news has spread like wild fire to the UGLE where many brothers are unhappy and suggesting pulling recognition of Georgia unless they come to their senses. American Grand Lodges need to follow suit. The idea that a black man is not fit to be a “mainstream” Mason is repugnant. Perhaps people from Georgia are not sufficiently fit morally or intellectually to be Masons?
Are the gender equal? Yes. Are they the same? No.
If we allow women to be Masons I would predict in less than 20 years the majority of members would be female, just because many would join because now they could. They would attend very few meetings, and it would end up a social club of a few women and a couple men. The Masons that are so willing to allow women in Lodge now would be complaining even louder about how the philosphy and moralty has been taking out of the organization.
To paraphrase, Freemasonry has more to offer the 21st centruy than the 21st century has to offer Masonry. However if we complete throw out every thing (I know I was told several times in the ritual that Freemasonry is a system of MORAL INSTRUCTION), we have nothing except old buildings.
I believe one of the largest problems in masonry today is those who are in lodges that are having problems are yelling so loud that those of our lodges that are doing well can not be heard.
David B,
Almost without exception the most dedicated and studious Masons I have ever known happen to be female. The best rutualists I have ever seen where female.
Many serious groups dedicated to self transformation such as the Rosicrucians, Golden Dawn and the Theosophists have a high female membership.
One of them have turned into the female gossip clubs that you describe.
Love and Light,
Raum
David B
Women do not have to be members of present day Mainstream Grand Lodges. I imagine there are just as many females in Masonry who do not want males in their Grand Lodges as men who don’t want females in theirs. The idea here is to have 1) All male Lodges, 2) All female Lodges, 3) Co-Masonic Lodges
This gives everybody a choice. Lodges should admit who they want to admit. Nobody should tell a Lodge that they have to admit anybody. By the same token all three kinds of Masonry need to recognize each other.
Now the choice is yours. Go choose what kind of Lodge you would like to belong to. Nobody is forced to do anything.
PB wrote:
> “To suggest that that all behavior should be tolerated is just wrong.”
I don’t believe anyone suggested any such a thing (but feel free to correct if I’m wrong). On the other hand, I truly believe that tolerance is an important value that Freemasonry philosophically supports and promotes. The question is (ahem
where does one draw the line?
Currently I look at it something like this:
“Tolerance for others and their opinions, but no tolerance for those
who practice or preach any form of intolerance.”
I’d be interested in feedback on this point of view BTW…
PB wrote:
> Acknowledging a female to be a Mason, which you did in your article, is crossing the line in my opinion. If Masonic Central is going to treat this Karen Kidd as a Mason – regardless of how “articulate” she may be, then I will be really disturbed.
Go ahead and get disturbed (it might even be good for you
In any case, the reality is clearly that this KK person is a ‘freemason’ of some description. To some she is clandestine or irregular, to others she is a ‘co-mason’, and to others she is a ‘quasi-mason’. Whatever one chooses to call her, she is practicing some form of the Craft, and just as we commonly refer to other ‘irregular’ forms of masonry (e.g. Grand Orient) as ‘masons’, so should we accord to her the same level of basic respect. This is just common courtesy IMHO.
Finally, I agree absolutely with the Beehive’s previous comment, as this is my current position also. The rather obvious solution to this whole ‘gender’ dilemma is to create and recognize 3 categories of participation: 1) all-male (currently exists); 2) all-female (currently exists?); and 3) male-female (currently exists as ‘co-masonry’). Notice that this in theory vastly increases the opportunity for more people to get involved with, and benefit from, the Craft, without damaging in any way the current membership, AFAICT.
Question: what, precisely, is the harm in spreading/expanding the wealth of freemasonry around, and giving individuals the *choice* in how they wish to participate in various forms of our venerable Craft?
~ Vitruvius ~
As for who decided its position in the 21st century, as above, it is an opinion, nothing more. Just as the Masonic Line is one brothers opinion. Members, Lodges, and Grand Lodges will continue in their processes, doubtfully influenced one way or another at the opinions of a few Internet masons.
Do consider what happened to brethren in Missouri for writing info online that wasn’t flattering to the GM, specifically about how he openly proclaimed against members of certain religion in an open Lodge.
MO issued an order – no MO Mason could publish anything about masonry unless it were hosted on the GL website, and with GL approval.
Look what happened to Tim Bryce.
Brother Fred: respectfully, when there are Freemasons beheading women in packed soccer stadiums, it would be appropriate to admonish such people from being Taliban Freemasons. Probably not before.
There are female-only Grand Lodges, and mixed sex Grand Lodges. I regard lodges that accept women as legitimate assuming they keep the other Ancient Landmarks, but I will not sit in Lodge with them nor allow them to sit in my lodge. I’d love to work with them for charitable events and for mutual protection, and even enjoy socializing with them. I would immediately respond to the Grand Hailing Sign given by a woman.
I regard Oriental Freemasonry as legitimate assuming they keep the other Ancient Landmarks, but I will not sit in Lodge with them nor allow them to sit in my lodge. I’d love to work with them for charitable events and for mutual protection, and even enjoy socializing with them. I would immediately respond to the Grand Hailing Sign given by an Oriental mason.
I need communion with other men, framed in ritual, and devoted to Brotherly Love, Relief and Truth. I go to a non-Orthodox synagogue twice a week, and pray with women and there are female officers and a female rabbi and I love my religious community. I get mixed-sex communion at my place of worship. For Freemasonry to work for me, and to give me what I need from it, I need to sit in a lodge of men. Women get the rest of my life, but not my lodge time. I think that men need this structure to help them become better men. Better people as well, but particularly better men.
Men all over the world are starving for good role models of sane masculinity. Boys put themselves in terrible danger trying to prove themselves to their peers with acts of recklessness and false bravery. Our society lacks good initiation rituals, and without initiation, a man does not know he is a man. A woman’s body initiates her throughout her journey. She grows breasts and hips and knows she’s not a child anymore. She grows menopausal and knows she’s not a young woman anymore. No ritual is required to go from Youth to Womanhood to Age. Men lack this, and ritual takes the place of biology for men.
High school or college graduation does not initiate manhood. A bar mitzvah is not sufficient. Eagle Scout ceremonies miss the mark (although the Order of the Arrow is pretty good at this). A youth needs to walk into a room, or into a forest, or into a cave, and walk out a man, through the help of older men not related to him who have gone through the same ritual. When men are not given a proper initiation, they turn to playing chicken with cars, gangs, petty crime, drugs and alcohol, predatory sexual behavior, other ways to prove themselves. Freemasonry is the best structured method I know to initiate men into the right kind of manhood.
I have many friends who are atheists or agnostics, some of whom would benefit from Freemasonry, but would never petition because of their inability to submit to a Supreme Being they cannot conceive of. I’d rather have such a person benefit from Freemasonry to the best of their ability than stay in the dark. My own prejudices lead me to regard Oriental Freemasonry as inferior to Ancient Freemasonry, but I’d rather these Brothers and Sisters enjoy partial light than no light.
Wow a masonic forum that Raum Sariel hasn’t been banned from. That alone makes this website suspect…
I have seen this very poster banned from multiple forums. He has even gone so far as holding multiple accounts, impersonating a female mason, and holding conversations with himself. Don’t trust a word he says.
On topic. There should be no racial inequality in the lodge. Women in our society are equal. Freemasonry is a Fraternity. Men don’t join Sororities This Fraternity is for men not women. I know that my wife wouldn’t be very happy with me going out several times a week and attending secret coed meetings that I can’t tell her about. I’m thinking Kubricks “Eyes Wide Shut” would be playing in her head. And before anyone says “but then she could join” She doesn’t want to join. I suspect there are many other men who’s wives wouldn’t want to join and who would be leaving the fraternity once women were admitted.
Besides if women were really all that interested in becoming Freemasons there would be a much larger memebership in the appendant bodies they can already be involved in and in the clandestine lodges that exist. I really think that is a non issue.
:laughs:
It’s okay, Cabra – the black helicopters are patrolling Brad’s neighborhood.
Besides, [Brad] if you don’t put the food on my table, then you don’t have the right to tell me what to do. [/Brad]
I agree with you about the idea of some women (and men) being uncomfortable with their SOs going to the Eyes Wide Shut meetings. Similarly, some people do join things that their SOs arent’ involved in, simply to get away form the house for an evening, or to explore some different interests. My wife and I do different things, and except that we’re rarely home at the same time (or perhaps because of it?) we seem to be doing just fine.
That said, your contention that there would be more women joining OES or Co-masonry might be cart before the horse reasoning. Most Masons that I know are against their SOs joining a Co-Mason (read: Clandestine) order. And since many OES women prefer that their husbands join, too, some men aren’t crazy about the idea of going to OES events and lodge events as well.
Also, unless you live in or near a major city, there really aren’t many Co-Masonic lodges available to women. I think that there is only one in the entire state of Conn, and from what I hear, it’s not doing well. My wife would probably have to drive over an hour to NY, should be be so inclined. Which she’s not.
I posted this message for Greg Stewart, but thought that you Fred, might be able to help. I love the new site and Masonic Central. Recently while browsing the web for questions or comments about Freemasonry I came across a newly opened thread on a Sean Hannity (I know…) discussion board posted by someone who is either a devout Catholic or a Fundamentalist Christian. They were looking for a Mason to talk about Masonry.
I registered just to respond. And boy was I astounded! I received MANY complimentary posts thanking me and on Blessing me for being a Shriner.
At any rate, I have also been going back and forth with a woman who SEEMS very interested in becoming a Co-Mason. I gave her a link to your up coming show with Karen Kidd. She seems at a loss as to who to contact, etc. So I told her that I would try to put her in contact with you (you seem very knowledgeable and well connected) with a private message to her with an email address so you don’t get flamed by any nuts (although, so far, there seems to have been only one in the thread). But I can’t seem to locate an email address for you. Could you privately email one I can refer her to?
Here is the address for the Hannity thread:
http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?t=1521561&page=10
This is I believe in reverse from first post asking a Mason to comment to the last. Many of the people seemed quite nice and there is a later one from a Native American that is very profound and a great compliment to Masonry.
The woman interested in Co-Masonry goes by the screen name of StoneScratcher.
My Greatest Fraternal Thanks for any help you might be able to give this woman even if only providing her with another contact!
My email is: aarono1234@yahoo.com